Unpopular opinions

Wdym by next Calyrex I assume I mean calyrex rider forms since normal calyrex sucks, but giving solid rock or some variant of it to meganium doesn’t make it broken like is that period broken? Hell no. Just making supereffective moves deal slightly less damage doesn’t change it too much just a minor buff overall
My point was that there's no reason to buff Meganium.

Some mons are doomed to suck. We can't have only good mons.
As much as I'm a grass-starter-master-race myself, we don't need 20 "generic grass type defensive mon". Water types already have like 20 water types that are just "walls" with different stats and all do exactly same thing (or used to): spam scald until they burned something (guess why they removed it?).

If you want to play a game where every piece is the same, go play checkers. There is a reason we ban or at very least condemn wishlisting on this board: it's cause everyone wants to buff their favourites for no apparent reason of "they shouldn't suck".
 

Samtendo09

Ability: Light Power
is a Pre-Contributor
My point was that there's no reason to buff Meganium.

Some mons are doomed to suck. We can't have only good mons.
As much as I'm a grass-starter-master-race myself, we don't need 20 "generic grass type defensive mon". Water types already have like 20 water types that are just "walls" with different stats and all do exactly same thing (or used to): spam scald until they burned something (guess why they removed it?).

If you want to play a game where every piece is the same, go play checkers. There is a reason we ban or at very least condemn wishlisting on this board: it's cause everyone wants to buff their favourites for no apparent reason of "they shouldn't suck".
Except the Chikorita line are starters, and they are not supposed to suck. Leaving it doomed to suck for eternity feels so wrong and heartbreaking to someone who loved the Chikorita line at that.

They would need something special to make them stand out from Venusaur, their predecessor.

Some mons will still be better than others but no Pokémon should absolutely sucks in-game.
 
Except the Chikorita line are starters, and they are not supposed to suck
Pardon me but where exactly was stated that "starters arent meant to suck"? Was there a piece of paper signed by GameFreaks stating this?

The Chikorita line is fine in the gen it's new, and there's plenty of other starters that "suck". Remind me exactly when Emboar, Typhlosion, Delphox, Samurott, Decidueye, Sceptile (mega aside and tbfh even the mega), Torterra, etc etc, were the peak of competitive gameplay? And when exactly did they have "problems" in game to make the game too hard if you picked them?

Plus many of the starters that do have competitive viability are completely unviable without their HA, which is also not available through regular gameplay.


The only thing starters have in common is that they are meant to attract new players design wise. Gameplay wise, who cares, everyone and their mom's starter will be so overleveled that they could have magikarp tier stats and still roll over the games.

I stg people on this forum are too obsessed with "make every pokemon good".
No, we don't need that. The games need shitmons as much as calyrex-shadow.

As I said, if you guys want a game where every piece is the game, play checkers, not pokemon.
 

Samtendo09

Ability: Light Power
is a Pre-Contributor
I stg people on this forum are too obsessed with "make every pokemon good".
No, we don't need that. The games need shitmons as much as calyrex-shadow.
You rather have stuff like Calyrex-Shadow not be at the very least moderately nerfed over “make every Pokémon Good”? No, I won’t accept that. You also focused mostly on competitive, but I specifically said in-game.

The power creep is bad enough as-is and the way you reply me is very rude. Telling people to go play checkers isn’t going to help your case, especially since checkers is a fundamentally different game that aged better than Pokémon.
 
The power creep is bad enough as-is and the way you reply me is very rude
I am being very rude on the subject on purpose. It's tiring to read a constant flux of "GF should buff this" and "GF should nerf that".

It's a game with over 1000 Pokemon without even accounting for forms. A scale of "bad" and "good" will always happen. Some will always have to be at the bottom, some will always be at the top. You nerf Calyrex? Zacian takes its place. You nerf Zacian? Now Xerneas takes its place.
Works other way around too, remember when they buffed Pelipper and suddently made Politoed a joke of a pokemon? When they gave Drought to Torkoal and Ninetales has never seen the light of day again?

There must always be a lich king. Asking for Buffing / Nerfing at this point is just saying "I think this pokemon should be better for literally no reason".
There's no "this deserves better" in a videogame. As I said, this aint checkers. There's absolutely no need for "every pokemon to be viable", in fact, if every pokemon was good or viable, it'd be just a very boring rock paper scissor lizard spork scenario.

I don't think you are meant to have a degree in game design to understand this concept.
 
So let's not make it better. Let's make it more interesting. The kind of interesting that, even if it remains trash in conventional formats, might give it something to work with in unconventional ones. After all, the format I follow most ranks Shuckle and Garganacl on equal footing.

Meganium seems to be going for a Grass-type that focuses more on supporting allies than messing with the opponent, originally manifesting through screens. I could see trying to go for a doubles support role where its typing would be distinct from the usual Psychic or Fairy. Pollen Puff seems like an easy move to add in service to that goal, and it could get Follow Me as a 'friendlier' version of Rage Powder to help it keep pace with other Grass-types.
 
I stg people on this forum are too obsessed with "make every pokemon good".
No, we don't need that. The games need shitmons as much as calyrex-shadow.
Bad comparison because most of the competitively minded people hate how min-maxed Calyrex-Shadow is and would argure the game does NOT need it, which by this comparison means Shitmons are also unnecessary.

my bigger problem with Meganium is not that it’s bad as that it legitimately feels like it doesn’t do anything. With most shitmons I can identify a role and how their stuff tries to achieve that, poorly or not. Meganium has shit all to work with as a defensive/supportive Pokemon, which seems like what it is meant to do move wise.
 
Bad comparison because most of the competitively minded people hate how min-maxed Calyrex-Shadow is and would argure the game does NOT need it, which by this comparison means Shitmons are also unnecessary.
I am quite sure you are well aware of why I'm making exagerated examples pointing at the most broken pokemon designed in competitive history on both sides of the spectrum (both VGC and smogon). Because apparently making a normal understandable comparison doesn't hit the mark.
(Ironic, since regular Calyrex is arguably worse than Meganium at what it sets to do, as funny as it is)

my bigger problem with Meganium is not that it’s bad as that it legitimately feels like it doesn’t do anything. With most shitmons I can identify a role and how their stuff tries to achieve that, poorly or not. Meganium has shit all to work with as a defensive/supportive Pokemon, which seems like what it is meant to do move wise.
Meganium had (hopefully still has) your standard "defensive grass type" stuff. Leech Seed, Ingrain, screens (both of them, which is rarer than you'd think, as I've learned while doing raids Reflect is way rarer than Light Screen), and the now removed Aromatherapy which tbh is a big loss as it was one of the selling point of grass support mons. Even gets Grassy Terrain and Heal Pulse, and very likely will get Pollen Puff (at least, I'd assume so, since every other grass type has it in gen 9).
We do not know if it will gain access to any other of the new gen 8-9 moves, I would assume things like Strenght Sap or Trailblaze are potentially on the table as well.

It does what it sets to do: set screens and/or leech seed to stay alive. Gets to heal its teammates with Heal Pulse or potentially Pollen Puff if in doubles environment.
I fail to see how it fails at doing what it is meant to. Surely it's no Ferrothorn or Amoongus, but I struggle to see why it needs to be Ferrothorn or Amoongus.

That is my entire point. We all know Meganium is "just another forgettable grass type that nobody would even remind if it wasnt a starter". And my point is "so what?". Why does every "shitmon" need to be buffed?
As I pointed above, buffing a shitmon may make it better, but all it does is make it take someone else's place.
You want to make it Grass/Fairy? Well then you're murdering Shiinotic's niche. Want to give it a speed buff ability? May end up stomping any of the other Clorophyl users due to better BST and typing. Regenerator? Well then Eeldegoss is probably gone. Grassy Surge? Ah so it's going to take over any viability from Twackey in the lower tiers (while still being useless compared to Rillaboom). Quiver Dance? I guess you really want Lilligant in ZU.

No matter what you give it, it'll just take someone else place.
Hence once more... what's the point? On what basis do we decide that "Meganium" deserves to be better whereas "Lilligant" does not?
And if every pokemon deserves the same viability, then we're back at the start, where we may as well go play checkers where every pawn is the same.
 
The Chikorita line is fine in the gen it's new, and there's plenty of other starters that "suck". Remind me exactly when Emboar, Typhlosion, Delphox, Samurott, Decidueye, Sceptile (mega aside and tbfh even the mega), Torterra, etc etc, were the peak of competitive gameplay?
Ok let's see
Sceptile has some use for unburden sweeper - at least useful
Decidueye has a decent typing (better than meganium) with flexibility that actually gives it a presence
Samurott has some offensive mixed potential, sticking with av offensive seems fun
Delphox has the nasty plot
Typhlosion has eruption
emboar has reckless flare blitz and wild charge alongside close combat
torterra - true, mid - ill come back to this later tho
look these explanations are a bit mid
gen 7 tiering lets go
meganium - zu
emboar - nubl
sceptile - nu
samurott - nu
decidueye - nu
delphox - nu
torterra - zu
typhlosion - nu
seeing a pattern? all are nu except emboar (NUBL) and meganium/torterra (zu), which brings us to an interesting point - torterra also used to suck - but then GF buffed it with shell smash this gen and now its decent. unless you think that was a wrong decision, what's wrong with buffing meganium
also, for typhlosion, samurott, and decidueye, they gave them hisuian forms - this is sort of cheating but its sort of a buff - especially for samurott - but even without this point my point still stands - meganium sort of stands out as an ass mon

starters dont have to be the peak of competitive play, but meganium is just ASS
fixing meganium just like how they fixed torterra isnt an issue lmfao

That is my entire point. We all know Meganium is "just another forgettable grass type that nobody would even remind if it wasnt a starter". And my point is "so what?". Why does every "shitmon" need to be buffed?
As I pointed above, buffing a shitmon may make it better, but all it does is make it take someone else's place.
You want to make it Grass/Fairy? Well then you're murdering Shiinotic's niche. Want to give it a speed buff ability? May end up stomping any of the other Clorophyl users due to better BST and typing. Regenerator? Well then Eeldegoss is probably gone. Grassy Surge? Ah so it's going to take over any viability from Twackey in the lower tiers (while still being useless compared to Rillaboom). Quiver Dance? I guess you really want Lilligant in ZU.
shiinotic's niche? no, we don't get spore
speed buff ability? i assume u mean speed boost - and meganium doesn't get chlorophyll i dont get how this replaces the role of chlorophyll issues but that isn't what we're advocating for anyways
eldegoss? lmfao meganium gets no hazard removal and no sleep powder the only sleep move it gets is fucking grass whistle
grassy surge? ehhh no. a) it doesn't get grassy glide (yet) but even if it did b) ur not replacing thwackey u can go in a tier above it u know - it's like how magneton can be budget magnezone in lower tiers and electrode can be budget regieleki in zu. also thwackey has more attack and utilize eviolite which also gives it bulk
quiver dance? a) this doesnt make sense lol how does meganium dance b) again, no sleep move like lilligant - no sleep powder abuse and c) no own tempo so petal dance will confuse urself unlike lilligant

we don't need to make meganium some behemoth who is broken, just buffing it doesn't break the game. it isn't a question of whether or not we should buff pokemon - especially when the examples of pokemon meganium is replacing don't even stand up

look, again,
look to torterra
It's a game with over 1000 Pokemon without even accounting for forms. A scale of "bad" and "good" will always happen. Some will always have to be at the bottom, some will always be at the top. You nerf Calyrex? Zacian takes its place. You nerf Zacian? Now Xerneas takes its place.
Works other way around too, remember when they buffed Pelipper and suddently made Politoed a joke of a pokemon? When they gave Drought to Torkoal and Ninetales has never seen the light of day again?

There must always be a lich king. Asking for Buffing / Nerfing at this point is just saying "I think this pokemon should be better for literally no reason".
There's no "this deserves better" in a videogame. As I said, this aint checkers. There's absolutely no need for "every pokemon to be viable", in fact, if every pokemon was good or viable, it'd be just a very boring rock paper scissor lizard spork scenario.

I don't think you are meant to have a degree in game design to understand this concept.
"You nerf Calyrex? Zacian takes its place. You nerf Zacian? Now Xerneas takes its place."
while this is true, this takes the overal power level down. let me give you a scenario
We have A at power level 100, B at 75, C at 60, D at 50. A gets nerfed to 50 power. Now B is the best. Now B gets nerfed to 50 power. So now, we have C at 60, A at 50, B at 50, and D at 50. Oh no, C is the best mon in the game what will we do? Well, now A, B, and D are very close behind in power level. So it's more balanced. It's not like the concept of nerfs is new. GF did that exact thing to Zacian coming into gen 9! so, I don't know why this concept is really that difficult to grasp.

"Works other way around too, remember when they buffed Pelipper and suddently made Politoed a joke of a pokemon? When they gave Drought to Torkoal and Ninetales has never seen the light of day again?"
Oh no, politoed isnt viable in ou anymore. Good thing we have lower tiers! same to ninetales, they can just go to lower tiers. also: they are not carbon copies of each other. ninetales has a niche over torkoal on nasty plot, higher spatk (more offensive pressure) + more speed, so you can go defensive with torkoal or offensive with ninetales. then, between politoed and pelipper, u also have a choice. politoed has the niche of being way bulkier on the special side, being faster, and not being stealth rock weak. its not a complete replacement - it's fine
"I don't think you are meant to have a degree in game design to understand this concept."
this piece of text, frankly, baffles of me
do you think GF doesn't have a degree in game design (if so, well, I don't know what to say to you)? then why did they buff torterra with shell smash? why did they replace politoed with pelipper and ninetales with torkoal?
if you think this is bad, let me ask you something: who are you to judge how GF designs their games? because as far as I'm concerned, they are willing to nerf and they are willing to buff. so why shouldn't we buff meganium?
 
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I am quite sure you are well aware of why I'm making exagerated examples pointing at the most broken pokemon designed in competitive history on both sides of the spectrum (both VGC and smogon). Because apparently making a normal understandable comparison doesn't hit the mark.
(Ironic, since regular Calyrex is arguably worse than Meganium at what it sets to do, as funny as it is)
Fair point on the rest of the stiff said but I think this is misunderstanding my point. My problem isn’t the hyperbole of your comparison, but that saying the game needs shitmons as much as it needs (a mon most people don’t think is a good presence) seems to be arguing the opposite of your actual point
 
Fair point on the rest of the stiff said but I think this is misunderstanding my point. My problem isn’t the hyperbole of your comparison, but that saying the game needs shitmons as much as it needs (a mon most people don’t think is a good presence) seems to be arguing the opposite of your actual point
The game doesn't "need" more shitmons per se, but it's inevitable that as more and more pokemon get released, more and more get powercrept and die out.

That's just the nature of a 1000+ characters game.

If people are not aware of it, the game *needs* to keep powercreeping. If the new mons are not (on average) stronger, people won't use them, so people won't be interested in buying the games or the dlcs or the plushies or whatnot. You don't see people lining out the stores demanding a Scovillain plushie do you? But you do see them wanting Zacian ones. Remember the meme where the Zacian plushies were sold out, but noone bought Zamazenta ones?
It's a problem every long running series faces, mostly really card games as other "collectible entity" games like Digimon or SMT just put in and out whatever they feel like it and never had the issue of "keeping all 1000 toghether" (nor actually care of what's good or bad due to no competitive scene anyway).
Even MOBAs like League face the problem to constantly have to pull out stronger, more complex champions to keep the interest up, with the result that "release date diff" became a real meme lately.
(And guess what, they have the same "problem" aka the more stuff they release, the more obsolete the old ones become)

No matter how much your average smogooner will keep thinking you can "balance 1000 pokemon", it's not happening. The games will always have shitmons, will always have op mons, it's the nature of this kind of games.

Once more, for a fully balanced game, play checkers.
Leave the shitmons alone. I stg i wish mods enforced the "no wishlisting" rule more, these boards would be a tiny bit more readable, and would make my blocklist less flooded.
 
The game doesn't "need" more shitmons per se, but it's inevitable that as more and more pokemon get released, more and more get powercrept and die out.

That's just the nature of a 1000+ characters game.

If people are not aware of it, the game *needs* to keep powercreeping. If the new mons are not (on average) stronger, people won't use them, so people won't be interested in buying the games or the dlcs or the plushies or whatnot. You don't see people lining out the stores demanding a Scovillain plushie do you? But you do see them wanting Zacian ones. Remember the meme where the Zacian plushies were sold out, but noone bought Zamazenta ones?
It's a problem every long running series faces, mostly really card games as other "collectible entity" games like Digimon or SMT just put in and out whatever they feel like it and never had the issue of "keeping all 1000 toghether" (nor actually care of what's good or bad due to no competitive scene anyway).
Even MOBAs like League face the problem to constantly have to pull out stronger, more complex champions to keep the interest up, with the result that "release date diff" became a real meme lately.
(And guess what, they have the same "problem" aka the more stuff they release, the more obsolete the old ones become)

No matter how much your average smogooner will keep thinking you can "balance 1000 pokemon", it's not happening. The games will always have shitmons, will always have op mons, it's the nature of this kind of games.

Once more, for a fully balanced game, play checkers.
Leave the shitmons alone. I stg i wish mods enforced the "no wishlisting" rule more, these boards would be a tiny bit more readable, and would make my blocklist less flooded.
Look, I just want you to explain one thing - why can we buff torterra but not meganium
 

Samtendo09

Ability: Light Power
is a Pre-Contributor
The game doesn't "need" more shitmons per se, but it's inevitable that as more and more pokemon get released, more and more get powercrept and die out.

That's just the nature of a 1000+ characters game.

If people are not aware of it, the game *needs* to keep powercreeping. If the new mons are not (on average) stronger, people won't use them, so people won't be interested in buying the games or the dlcs or the plushies or whatnot. You don't see people lining out the stores demanding a Scovillain plushie do you? But you do see them wanting Zacian ones. Remember the meme where the Zacian plushies were sold out, but noone bought Zamazenta ones?
It's a problem every long running series faces, mostly really card games as other "collectible entity" games like Digimon or SMT just put in and out whatever they feel like it and never had the issue of "keeping all 1000 toghether" (nor actually care of what's good or bad due to no competitive scene anyway).
Even MOBAs like League face the problem to constantly have to pull out stronger, more complex champions to keep the interest up, with the result that "release date diff" became a real meme lately.
(And guess what, they have the same "problem" aka the more stuff they release, the more obsolete the old ones become)

No matter how much your average smogooner will keep thinking you can "balance 1000 pokemon", it's not happening. The games will always have shitmons, will always have op mons, it's the nature of this kind of games.

Once more, for a fully balanced game, play checkers.
Leave the shitmons alone. I stg i wish mods enforced the "no wishlisting" rule more, these boards would be a tiny bit more readable, and would make my blocklist less flooded.
The biggest issue of your arguments is how relentlessly cynical they comes off even if there are a few solid points.

As much as the “no wishlisting” rule should be reinforced more by the mods, being so aggressive about it can end up alienating a lot more people than you might think. Going as far as suggesting a completely different game that is not even the same genre as Pokémon or even a video game at all is more insulting than you might think.

And you wanna know something? I can’t call SwSh games onward “+1000 Pokémon” if some are not even available to use to begin with. This results in less options that can be rebalanced more closely in theory, even if GF wasn’t even competant in that territory.

Another thing is that “making newer options OP” is just a lazy idea with equally lazy execution. Overtuned newcomers for sake of overtuned newcomers may drive up DLC or expansion sales, yeah, but the rate of power creep can also result in alienating the competitive audience at one point or another. While Pokémon didn’t reached it yet, there’s always a chance that people become less interested in competitive because of matches going way too fast and too hyper offense oriented.

While some Pokémon will be better than others even in-game, no one in the right mind would want obnoxiously min-maxed Pokémon not nerfed. Likewise, shitmons are disliked by wide audience because of being too weak for their own good.

League of Legends have this problem because it adds too many things too fast, resulting an absolutely bloated game for it’s own good. While the game itself is still popular after all these years, it’s because the metagame evolves so quickly since the devs reacted fast enough to nerf OP newcomers. While a vicious cycle, they have a decency not to make newcomers too OP for years. That is not the case with Pokémon, where we have to wait until SV for Zacian to be nerfed, and there is no stat redistribution on blatantly overpowered Pokémon like Palafin, the Paradox Pokémon and most of the Treasures of Ruins even after the DLC is released.

The Regulations, as it stands, aren’t enough to shake up metagames sufficently due to how too little Pokémon they ban. If they ban the top twenty, which is a lot, it might see next top twenty but still allows more creativitiy while it lasts.

There’s also accusations of P2W within Pokémon, which is running rampant back in SwSh’s DLC, and happened right now via Ogerpon, alongside HOME shenanigans. And with the ridiculous power creep caused by Gen 9, and even back Gen 6 and 7 with obscenely OP Mega Evolved Pokémon, all it’ll succeed is to make matches even more stale, not make them less.

One last thing is that going as far as telling others to not bother with balancing, period, rather than just tell them this thread is not the place for balancing, is a way to kill the others’ joy. You have the right to complain, but if you go to an extent to tell others that there is no point of rebalancing something like a game with +300 Pokémon despite knowing how many non-competitive people disliked overtuned ‘mons and how much they dislike shitmons, that is just being selfish to a fault.
 
The biggest issue of your arguments is how relentlessly cynical they comes off even if there are a few solid points.
I know I'm being extremely cynical on this subject, and I'm doing it on purpose, because honestly of all the various weird things I read, it's the one I think is the most pointless, because it doesn't make sense on logical standpoint (hence my checkers comparison).

League of Legends have this problem because it adds too many things too fast, resulting an absolutely bloated game for it’s own good. While the game itself is still popular after all these years, it’s because the metagame evolves so quickly since the devs reacted fast enough to nerf OP newcomers. While a vicious cycle, they have a decency not to make newcomers too OP for years. That is not the case with Pokémon, where we have to wait until SV for Zacian to be nerfed, and there is no stat redistribution on blatantly overpowered Pokémon like Palafin, the Paradox Pokémon and most of the Treasures of Ruins even after the DLC is released.
Incidentally, while GameFreaks does not patch aggressively as live services do, they have been instead opting for gradual introductions of pokemon in metagames while also gradually adding more via either raids, Home, DLCs.
The purpose is the same: you need to keep shaping up the meta, otherwise you end up in same scenario that Overwatch faced, where due to slow, passive patching, you have 6+ months of stale metas where people just get progressively more bored and abandon the scene.
We may likely see more on this subject from GF/TPCI in future, as we all know, their purpose is to make VGC a real esport and not just a meme, and they're slowly making steps toward them.

There’s also accusations of P2W within Pokémon, which is running rampant back in SwSh’s DLC, and happened right now via Ogerpon, alongside HOME shenanigans. And with the ridiculous power creep caused by Gen 9, and even back Gen 6 and 7 with obscenely OP Mega Evolved Pokémon, all it’ll succeed is to make matches even more stale, not make them less.
The P2W shenenigans regading DLCs are a joke and anyone making them should be ashamed of themselves.

The only *legitimate* complaint is the fact that reg D and E allowed transfer-only non breedable pokemon which require older games, that is a legitimate complaint and something I sincerely hope they learned the lesson about. It had not happened since the inception of "current gen only rule", and it should have stayed that way.

But for the DLC part, I don't quite recall people being smadge about needing ORAS to play, I don't recall people being this mad about needing USUM to play. People are being *so* dumb about it that they don't realize that in fact the DLCs cost half of a full game, and if we were still in "2nd version" era, you'd be paying 120 bucks instead of 90.
Owning the DLCs is just the same as owning the last games as is. Just happens to be dlcs of a game and not a entire separate entity that you have to play through AGAIN despite it being almost identical to the predecessor (i'm looking at you USUM).

A player being requested to own the latest version of a game to be able to partecipate efficiently to VGC is a fair request. That's how every competitive game works, and as I pointed somewhere else, you don't see Smash players calling DLCs P2W (assuming the scene hasnt got killed yet), you don't see TCG players complaining of new card expansions making old ones obsolete, etc.

What is NOT good is requiring you to not only own "the gen 9 games", but also several gen 8 ones. That we can agree on.

One last thing is that going as far as telling others to not bother with balancing, period, rather than just tell them this thread is not the place for balancing, is a way to kill the others’ joy. You have the right to complain, but if you go to an extent to tell others that there is no point of rebalancing something like a game with +300 Pokémon despite knowing how many non-competitive people disliked overtuned ‘mons and how much they dislike shitmons, that is just being selfish to a fault.
I will just say that if it was a "once in a while" thing, it'd not be this obnoxious, but you can notice how frequent it is. Almost every day there is someone "trying to fix a pokemon" in one of the threads. And it's pointless. We can't do it, and even if we could, people always fail to see the result, aka, for a mon you buff, another becomes useless, but rather hide behind the illusion that you can "balance" 1000+ pokemon forms and make them all equally viable.
Once more, to the point of boring myself, checkers does that. Every pawn is the same.
Chess doesn't and I don't recall chess players asking for pawns to be able to move same as the Queen do you?
 
One point about game design:
If new options are introduced, and those options are not completely awful, then the game will experience powercreep. It's unavoidable. Either a new option is trash(in which case no one uses it and we all get mad at GF for wasting our time), it's notably better in many/most situations than the existing options(in which case we get mad about powercreep), or it's better some of the time and worse at others(in which case it's only used when it's better, and the avg power of teams increase). You may recognize option 3 as the reason why more and more stuff needs to be banned every gen if we want Stall to remain viable, even when something like Gen VII happens and most of the mons are mid at best.

Now, there are ways to fix this. Dexit(eliminating a bunch of mons) COULD have reduced power creep if GF had tried. And taking a bunch of staple moves like Knock Off and Scald away helps. But fundamentally, if you give people a mon that's good in one gen, and then next gen give them an identical mon except this one gets +10 across the board in weather and -10 outside weather, then weather teams just got better and non-weather teams stayed the same. And this holds even if the mon is on avg weaker than the previous option, and there's no real way for that not to happen.

I have opinions on game design, and on GF's approach to things, but also it's damn hard to pull off well.
 

Samtendo09

Ability: Light Power
is a Pre-Contributor
One point about game design:
If new options are introduced, and those options are not completely awful, then the game will experience powercreep. It's unavoidable. Either a new option is trash(in which case no one uses it and we all get mad at GF for wasting our time), it's notably better in many/most situations than the existing options(in which case we get mad about powercreep), or it's better some of the time and worse at others(in which case it's only used when it's better, and the avg power of teams increase). You may recognize option 3 as the reason why more and more stuff needs to be banned every gen if we want Stall to remain viable, even when something like Gen VII happens and most of the mons are mid at best.

Now, there are ways to fix this. Dexit(eliminating a bunch of mons) COULD have reduced power creep if GF had tried. And taking a bunch of staple moves like Knock Off and Scald away helps. But fundamentally, if you give people a mon that's good in one gen, and then next gen give them an identical mon except this one gets +10 across the board in weather and -10 outside weather, then weather teams just got better and non-weather teams stayed the same. And this holds even if the mon is on avg weaker than the previous option, and there's no real way for that not to happen.

I have opinions on game design, and on GF's approach to things, but also it's damn hard to pull off well.
As inevitable it is, how power creep is handled, or how much there is in one shot, must be considered as well.

Back in Gen 5, there was a notable power creep, including the infamous weather wars. There is blatant power creep regarding newer Pokémon, but to be honest, it have more to do with the fact that many Gen 1, 2, 3 and 4 Pokémon aren’t good to begin with, so it’s not a huge issue by itself since it simply means more viable options.

As VGC centers around Double, the power creep isn’t as obvious as it does in Smogon. That said, there can only be so much power creep before it gets both ridiculous and actively detrimental to the metagame.

It happened in XY + ORAS because of the infamous CHALK team, one that left a negative impact into VGC until corrections were done in Gen 7.

And with a worringly increasing amount of overtuned Pokémon introduced in this Generation, even with Doubles in mind first and foremost, I fear that we will get a history repeat of a team like the CHALK or worse, and public interest of competitive might get a downturn again.

I think I said and heard enough from this forum tonight. As much as there are valid points, I feel like it might devolve into toxicity. I’ll give it a rest until the subject changes.
 
speaking of changing the subject and unpopular opinions: it was mentioned that zacian is much more popular than zamazenta, but i love zamazenta - regardless of how it ended up operating competitively. compared to zacian, it's just such a gorgeous regal-looking creature, and to me, zacian doesn't hit the mark in either form - hero is too common, crowned is too detailed and almost digimon-y.

i also like that it's a defensively focused box legendary!! sure they failed entirely at actually making it good at being defensive in mechanics, but the concept is what counts :tymp:
 
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Coronis

Impressively round
is a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
What a fun argument about competitive niches in an ingame forum.


Anyway as a strictly ingame player my overleveled Meganium will stomp everyone or will be a challenge to use in battles with Ogre Clan or on certain challenge runs so idc.

Chikorita line is another member of the second evo supremacy group of starters for me.

For me as well, and I believe a large number of the fanbase, the Chikorita line (especially Meganium itself) aren’t high in the list of popular starters - less incentive to buff it.

Also um, isn’t Pokemon (especially nowadays) a very offensive biased game competitively? (I haven’t played competitive for many gens so I could be grossly misinformed) A defensive Pokemon is inherently going to be worse than an offensive Pokemon no?
 

Kin+ak (✧∇✧)

I COULD BE BANNED!
Except the Chikorita line are starters, and they are not supposed to suck. Leaving it doomed to suck for eternity feels so wrong and heartbreaking to someone who loved the Chikorita line at that.

They would need something special to make them stand out from Venusaur, their predecessor.

Some mons will still be better than others but no Pokémon should absolutely sucks in-game.
Stop you right there. Meganium isn't And Never was my favorite pokemon. It deserves a buff as a starter pokemon
 
What a fun argument about competitive niches in an ingame forum.


Anyway as a strictly ingame player my overleveled Meganium will stomp everyone or will be a challenge to use in battles with Ogre Clan or on certain challenge runs so idc.

Chikorita line is another member of the second evo supremacy group of starters for me.

For me as well, and I believe a large number of the fanbase, the Chikorita line (especially Meganium itself) aren’t high in the list of popular starters - less incentive to buff it.

Also um, isn’t Pokemon (especially nowadays) a very offensive biased game competitively? (I haven’t played competitive for many gens so I could be grossly misinformed) A defensive Pokemon is inherently going to be worse than an offensive Pokemon no?
To briefly answer the comp part, in Singles yes Offense is heavy but Support does have roles, and in Doubles you need a good mix to stop your attackers from getting double teamed.

As for Meganium, I'm kind of the opposite point from you where I long accepted not every Pokemon can be good in competitive, and my wish to see it buffed was because I used it for GSC/HGSS once each and it was not fun either time. Part of it is that Johto's major battle type-matchups are hostile to pure Grass but it also highlights that Meganium really doesn't have anything to do besides slowly chip away at enemies that resist its very limited attack options or sit on things like Leech Seed. Even in the limited option Colosseum I found it the most underwhelming of the starters. I don't care if it stays in FUBL for eternity competitively but I do think it could have used more to do in some form, as I like its design but it's an active detriment to the gameplay side of the experience for me even compared to most "bad but I like using this" mons.
 

ScraftyIsTheBest

On to new Horizons!
is a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
When it comes to competitive, Pokemon is stuck in a weird spot because it's trying to be a competitive game while at the same time also being a single-player RPG, which is what it was designed to be from the start. The earlier generations like Gens 1-3 were most certainly not designed with PvP in mind, as competitive Pokemon wasn't really a big thing back in those days. Gen 3 introduced Doubles but back then they were mostly a tentatively designed battle type they were experimenting with. It wasn't until Gen 4 that they really started making Pokemon into a PvP thing that people can feasibly have a competitive environment with, with VGC becoming a thing in Gen 4 and that being the first generation of modern competitive.

Pokemon has been in a weird place there for a long time because it tries to be a competitive game, but at the same time doesn't want to compromise its original identity of being a dedicated single-player RPG with mons continuing to be designed also with that mentality in mind.

With respect to in-game, which I feel is also an important thing to address, again, Meganium gets more scrutiny because it's a starter, and those Pokemon have an expectation to at least be very good in-game for an in-game playthrough, because they fulfill a very distinct role from an RPG standpoint: they are your first partner Pokemon, and they are designed to be good from beginning to end, being the one Pokemon you are always expected to keep with you to the finish line, being your dear partner and friend and your number one. In a way, the starter trio in every game is effectively the honorary trio of protagonists in their flagship game, among the Pokemon of their roster. The game's journey is their journey as much as it is their Trainer's, and they grow alongside the Trainer who chose them and will be there to the end.

I won't say Meganium is necessarily awful in-game in its home region's games, but it's definitely been ridiculed for being underwhelming as a starter, which to be fair, is not entirely its fault, as Johto is horrendously hostile to Grass-types. But I think even in the context of GSC and HGSS it's kind of in a weird spot where it's defensively oriented, and frankly it does have the tools in-game to suffice with Synthesis, screens, and stuff like Safeguard, Aromatherapy, and status with Poison Powder and Body Slam. But I feel many expect their starters to be a powerhouse force that can destroy teams and be the most powerful member, and Meganium isn't really the type to do that because its whole schtick is geared towards supporting its team and being a defensive backbone rather than a powerhouse destroyer like other starters. The fact that it's on the more passive side even as a starter probably hurts its perception especially when it's a member of an archetype that people have very specific expectations for when it comes to game design and how they perform in an in-game playthrough.

Those are my two cents on the matter.
 

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